3.1 and the all seeing eye

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3.1 and the all seeing eye

Postby Nerbutz » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:56 pm

So 3.1 is going to bring some class changes for all us dreadplate wearing knight type people. This will undoubtedly change how some of the specs work/are built. We shall see.


Regardless, given our dps problems this past tuesday in the 25 man, I am going to become something of a DK Nazi. The difference btw 1900dps and 3000 dps isn't just a gear issue, so I don't want to see any utterly broken specs in a 25 man raid. 25 player raids are a giant logistical headache for our good officers, and while yes, your account is your account, once you step into a 25 man, you become part of a larger whole. You surrender a bit of free will. The needs of the many outweigh those of the few. Any nonfunctional or less functional parts slow the whole machine down. This must not occur.


With the dual spec feature looming ever closer, there's absolutely no reason not to have a pre-made raid ready spec, and a fun fuck around tank, pvp, whatever spec. You owe it to the people around you who are making the same time sacrifice.


That is all.
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Postby Nerbutz » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:29 pm

We've just been nerfed to hell.


Blade barrier, as predicted, got obliterated, Will of the Necropolis has been given an internal cooldown, frost presence nerfed, Lichborne is now a worthless pvp talent, and the "tanking style" of the 3 trees is now negligible. They are utterly the same, save flavor text. Frost is vastly superior and will remain so from here on out, due to Frigid Dreadplate. Not via play, but because its a passive 3% avoidance talen. Awesome.


I am the first to admit that my character is vastly too powerful in terms of tanking slow hard hitting bosses or bosses with big flames that they announce 3 minutes ahead of time, but this is far too severe. Paladins and Warriors will now rule the day. DK's and Drooods cannot compete with shields. Block will be the "new" avoidance.


ugh.
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Postby Jaana » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:07 pm

Nerbutz wrote:We've just been nerfed to hell.


Blade barrier, as predicted, got obliterated, Will of the Necropolis has been given an internal cooldown, frost presence nerfed, Lichborne is now a worthless pvp talent, and the "tanking style" of the 3 trees is now negligible. They are utterly the same, save flavor text. Frost is vastly superior and will remain so from here on out, due to Frigid Dreadplate. Not via play, but because its a passive 3% avoidance talen. Awesome.


I am the first to admit that my character is vastly too powerful in terms of tanking slow hard hitting bosses or bosses with big flames that they announce 3 minutes ahead of time, but this is far too severe. Paladins and Warriors will now rule the day. DK's and Drooods cannot compete with shields. Block will be the "new" avoidance.


ugh.


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Postby Cyrix » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:29 pm

:) :)
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Postby Endex » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:56 pm

Well druids are supposed to be getting a "block" mechanic of sorts in the next patch with a shield that becomes active after a crit and absorbs damage on the next hit based on AP. But we'll see how well it works out.

But I am looking forward to it considering they are lowering our Armor again the only avoidance we have of course is dodge. This will make AP and crit on gear more important when considering itemization for feral tanking.
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Postby Nerbutz » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:28 am

My issue is the same I have always had with Blizzard.

They don't think things through. Their success has created this arrogance about their systems. You talk to 100 players of every class and I'm sure you will find, after sifting through the drivel, 1000 valid complaints. Its beyond ridiculous, at this point in WoW, that people who play healers ignore 80% of what's goin on around them. That simply shouldn't be acceptable.


Blizzard, designs both the monster abilities and player abilities. The leeway they leave is either accidental design or planned. So people go, get gear, use abilities and eventually get nerfed when something gets "out of hand." It just baffles my mind that these things aren't more accurately predicted by their highly paid staff. Or that other things are "acceptable." Like Mages in BC getting buttfucked by hardcore guilds. Please come summon food and ggthxbye.


With millions of subsctribers, you'd think they'd want to maintain market predominance through quality rather than because they are the only gig in town.



Its just really really annoying. It reminds me of the Dark Ranger nerf in the Frozen Throne Beta. DK avoidance too high? Ok, nerf that, but wtf with the obliterating of my cooldowns? They did the exact thing to the Dark Ranger in that RTS beta. She was madly overpowered because for a few weeks, you didn't need to build an altar and could run to the tavern and grab her for free. But Blizzard, being Blizzard, instead of just fixing that bug, nerfed her to hell so much that it took 2 more years for her to become anything but a 3rd hero joke option. Fix the problem, don't destroy the whole class. Ugh.


They think linearly and design retroactively. So I fully expect Ulduar and the content after that patch to have bosses who hit fast and don't have predictive abilities. Which will doubly fuck the DK tank as we are based around popping those cooldowns to survive.


And forget fucking playstyle. Like, wtf. When tanking as DK, I use the same abilities I would as if I was DPS'ing with a 2 hander. No difference, whatsoever, except I get to use my fun defensive cooldowns. As of 3.1 I can't use them, because if I use them too soon the whole raid gets gibbed because I didn't have it ready when the game decided I needed it to be ready.

I have a massive problem with this. Sure, you might think I'm going a little apeshit here, over 3 abilities getting changed from 1 min to 2 mins, like whats the big deal Nerb/Ludo? Well I will fucking tell you what the big deal is...


I cannot go respecc and dual wield 2-Handers. I cannot respecc and go heal as a Tree or Holy Cleric type. I don't get fancy new buttons like "Divine Storm" or cat form or even Devestate and the other prot warrior shit. A 2-hand DPS DK and a tanking DK in play, are the fucking same thing.


By making parity for tanks (which I endorse) they have taken the coward's route and made parity for DK's, so now all the specs are basically the same thing. Awesome. Dilution ftw. Plus I will now be horribly spikey in damage taken, as, unlike all other tanks, we do not have shields.


Frost Presence is now the thing I hate most about WoW. It has become so bloated and powerful, these nerfs are not going to make the serious DK PVP'ers start PVPing in Unholy or Blood Presence, especially with the burst damage nerfs to the top tier blood and frost talents, the survivability of Frost Presence has in fact become more of an alluring choice to PVP with. WoW PVP is about making your strengths stronger, not covering your weaknesses. Instead of bursting people down the Arena DK's will be unkillible pullers with Death Grip. So Cafooh's prediction will probably come true, but not because of they way he thougt it. But because they had to nerf DK tanking abilities, which will lead to a future buff of Frost Presence, which will lead to a future nerf of Death Grip and awesome...Good design blizz. Good design.
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Postby Endex » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:43 am

So tell us how you really feel.

But yeah, sounds like it kind of sucks. Of course I look at it this way, all other classes in the game have been around since launch and they're still making changes to them. DKs have only been around for a few months....
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Postby Cafooh » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:03 pm

I doubt all these nerfs will go in. They basically nerfed every single possible spec as both DPS and Tank that you could be by a significant margin. I would be willing to be i will no longer have enough gear to effectively tank heroics after 3.1 goes live with these changes...and my dps will be considerably lower as well (unless the scaling diseases really makes up for it, but i doubt it).

It is stupid though, the only difference was the use of RP and def. cooldowns between tanking and DPSing. And using those CDs less often, combined with a nerf to FP, really looks bad for tanking DKs.

But Blizz prefers to massive nerf then buff on PTRs, so hopefully someone will say "shit we nerfed too much" before it goes live.
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Postby Cafooh » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:02 pm

Looks like DK tanking got buffed a bit from the previously announced nerfs, and the most recent build looks MUCH better for DPS. They undid a bunch of the definitely un-needed nerfs to blood and added some cool unholy stuff.
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Postby Nerbutz » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:40 pm

?????


Link or it didn't happen.
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Postby Nerbutz » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:35 pm

ok I see what you see, I think.


Thoughts:


1) they finally realized the need for more runic power management in blood (I've been lobbying this point for several days on the wow forums) , so now Death Strike will hit harder the more Runic Power you have. This is good, it requires human planning to decide if its better to save RP for a huge Death Strike self-heal or use it on a Rune Strike proc. But my beloved Obliterate no longer belongs in any rotation borne of deep talent expenditure in the tree. :( Heart Strikes and now Death Strikes are the only way to go.


2) They buffed Unbreakable Armor, as I predicted. I'm not sure its as good as Vamp Blood or Bone Shield, but I suppose Frost's strengths are its Howling Blasts, Frost Strikes, better Frost Presence, Frigid Dreadplate and Obliterates. So perhaps its defensive cooldown shouldn't be as strong as the other 2. Its in many ways the best "passive" tank tree the DK's have. Especially if Haste is further mutated into something truly worhtwhile for those of us who do damage based on swinging big slow weapons via special abilities. (an interesting but probably massively OP idea would be that enough Haste would grant a "free" oblit or Scourge Strike, yes it would mean people would just gear for that specific haste "rung" or whatever, but at least it would give more gear options and decisions to the player.


3) Unholy is weird. Bone Shield is still, imo, the best defensive cooldown, especially with better gear as the bones will last longer, but the threat of the tree in comparison to the others does concern me. A perma ghoul and gargoyle do no threat, they are fun, but do no threat. I like wackiness, and wackiness abounds with corpse explosion and AMZ and a 3rd disease, but the selling point here is really Bone Shield. I don't know that a whole tree can or should be justified as "tank" when DPS grabs that talent too. Necrosis and Blood Caked blade are baked into auto attacks so gear with more Armor Pen or Haste (and better Haste conversion into more attacks even just white ones) would seem to address the possible threat issues, who knows.

I must admit I often wish I had "corpse explosion" on my bar when amidst the dying and broken trash mobs in Naxx. But, is it worth losing so much of the innate "tankiness" in Frost or the sheer power of Blood?



4) Frost Presence. Buffed, again. This is just plain lazy. It may work, and it is the path of least resistance, but any buff here will have to be analyzed over again and again because of PVP. Design issues aside (making us "Tanks" through 1 ability ) the more damage Frost Presence mitigates, the harder all of us is to kill. This only makes it that much more attractive for arenas and BG's and does nothing to dissuade any DK whose not in a heroic or raid as DPS, from being in Frost Presnence. Its just flat out better than the other 2 unless all you are doing is dpsing a boss.


What Blizzard is doing is tuning each of the tanks to be at the same level for the next level of content. A noble endeavor and I'm not complaining about their goal, but rather their methods. Frost Presence is now a perma wannabe block, as is Blade Barrier. After all is said and done, after all the tweaking of numbers, I wonder if they will wish they just left the cooldown abilities alone and thus maintained some class individuality. I have no doubt that when 3.1 is released or soon after, all the tanks will in fact be tuned to be equal with one another in terms of damage absorbed and avoided, threat, overall "tankability" but they will all be much closer genetic relatives than perhaps they were originally intended to be. (or what players feel they should be.)


Are the classes now truly

Tank
Healer
DPS


With all else just wardrobe and flavor text?


I was thinking about this on my walk to the subway this morning. Raiding, in many ways, is like those huge Super Hero team up comic books. In the interest of fitting all the super popular characters into the narrative and getting eveyrone in on the action, you dilute the contributions of them individually, Thor, Iron Man, Storm, Superman, become your "fliers", Wolverine, Batman, Venom your "sneaky bad-asses" etc. Which I'm sure is not a brand new thought to any of you, but none of those uber team up comic books ever really work in the long run. Either the Infinity Gauntlet is reassembled to restore everything to the way it was before Thanos got it, or someone travels back in time and prevents everything from ever happening in the 1st place. Sound and fury. Signifying, truly, nothing.


But we do get phat loot, eh?
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Postby Cafooh » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:30 pm

i am having a hard time finding a frost-tanking build i dont hate. Seems a lot more difficult now.

Where is the analysis showing DS doing more damage deep than Oblit? I know they took it off might of mograine, but it still has +9% to crit base in the T1 talent. I cant seem to find the sheets.
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Postby 1nsany » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:14 pm

Nerbutz wrote:...Either the Infinity Gauntlet is reassembled to restore everything to the way it was before Thanos got it...


All-time favourite Silver Surfer thread. When I was a wee lad I drew a side story comic with an alternate ending that I really wish I could find.
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Re: 3.1 and the all seeing eye

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